We went with the American Standard Champion. We have a Kohler Memoirs which is more traditional in style, and it's done well. What you could do is check to see how the styles you like have done in the map testing. It's a long report, sorted a couple of different ways, but it will tell you by model number how each toilet has performed during testing.

Here is a link that might be useful: map report

Thanks,Lukkiirish. I did look at the MaP report based on a link in an older thread. If I'm understanding it correctly, it tells me mostly what I know from the specs: in the Kohler line Class 6 and Class 5 toilets move more waste than the older Ingenium models or the dual flush models. What I can't judge from the specs is whether the differences in waste volume are noticeable or meaningful in real-world use. Not to get too scatalogical, but I certainly can't look in my toilet and judge what might be 600 grams or 1,000 grams of solid waste! (I also checked the MaP report for some Toto models which I liked stylistically, like the Pacifica, Vespin and Nexus, but for some reason none of them are listed. I don't know what that means.)

I realize no one can tell me for certain what we'd be happy with, but I am interested in hearing people's satisfaction with these various toilets. If someone has a Cimarron Class 6 and also a Persuade or San Raphael, it would be interesting to know if you can't tell the difference in the flush, or conversely, if you feel the newer Class 5 or 6 models make all the difference in the world. Or, if anyone has experience with the any of the Class 5 models and also a Cimarron Class 6, is the newer Class 6 do a significantly better job washing down the bowl, or is it an indistinguishable difference?

-- Eric

P.S. Is there anything to read into the fact that Kohler introduced the Class 6 Cimarron a year (or more?) ago, but haven't yet moved any of their other Class 5 models to Class 6? If the changes in the Class 6 were driven by customer complaints about the bowl not being cleaned well enough in the Class 5 toilets, I would have thought they would have been moving quickly to transition more models to Class 6. Does this indicate the market is telling them that they still didn't get it "right" with the Class 6 Cimarron, and they're developing something else?

This might help.

We had the same dilemma, wanted class 6 function in a one-piece Cimarron. Finally decided that few people visit our master bathroom (except forum viewers)and the toilet is situated in its cubicle at the end of the room, so we gave up that neat one piece look and bought the 2 piece. All of our older toilets were 25 year old contemporary one piece Kohler's, but were very, very low. We love the comfort height now that we have it!

We also replaced a toilet in a guest bath at the same time and could only buy an American Standard Cadet 3 because of the specific rough-in situation after moving the toilet's location to a different wall. We are not as happy with this one's flushing function; it sometimes requires a second flush. It's not bad, but since we had to cancel a Cimarron to accommodate this situation, we wished we could have used a Cimarron here too. We definitely wanted a one piece model in the guest bath, but I am not sure visitors obsess over details the same way owners do.

Thanks, annaleef. Glad to hear you like your Class 6 comfort height Cimarron, even though it's the 2-piece design.

My brain knows that you're right about our master bathroom rarely having visitors, but we also have had a sleek one-piece Kohler (Rialto, which is very low!) for 20+ years, and wish we wouldn't have to give up that type of look to get a toilet that flushes well. We installed a different Kohler one-piece (San Raphael) in our powder room when we re-did that about four years ago, and I was hoping for something similarly stylish for our guest bathroom -- because guests *do* remark about the one-piece toilets.

I just keep coming back to the thought that if we get a pretty-looking toilet but it doesn't flush waste well or needs to be cleaned frequently, we won't be happy with that outcome in the long run. I'm exploring Totos (separate thread) because they have some nice looking contemporary, skirted toilets, some comfort height, with their G-Max flushing technology. It seems like there are lots of Kohler satisfied and dissatisfied customers, and lots of Toto satisfied and dissatisfied customers, making this tough to decide.

-- Eric

I really love the www.terrylove.com site for toilet reviews. I had the same hesitations but took the leap of faith and couldn't be happier with our Toto Drake.

Melinla, thanks. I've read a bit on Terry Love's site. It's helpful, but I'm also a bit wary of a site which seems to have a very strong bias towards Toto and against Kohler. It's perfectly fine that Mr. Love may prefer Toto based on his work in the field, but I don't view his site as an objective source of information. (For instance, I didn't see it mentioned anywhere on his site that some of the Toto toilets fared less well in the MaP reports on the amount of waste different toilets handle than a number of Kohlers and others.)

From my reading on this forum and elsewhere, it seems the majority of both Kohler and Toto owners are happy with their choices -- but a significant minority are not. There seem to be slightly more negative comments about Kohler, but Kohler's line of toilets today doesn't match what some unhappy owners put in two, three, four or more years ago, so comparing apples-to-apples isn't easy. As I have to start ordering materials for our remodels to get underway in a few weeks, I'm almost ready to throw up my hands, flip the coin, and make a decision -- but I'll keep reading everyone's comments until the moment I have to place an order! (grin)

-- Eric

My parents have the Cimarron class 5 and I have the Toto Aquia Dual Flush - there is no comparison. The Toto smokes the Kohler's. I can often flush successfully with the lower flush that is for "liquid only" - it's that efficient. I like the water savings of not having to do a full flush every time, and I have never had to plunge the Toto - and it's in my downstairs guest bathroom that gets heavy use. My parents have had to deal with clogs a couple of times with theirs, and often have to double flush.

My parents are so disgusted with the Cimarron that Kohler agreed to replace them. I was hoping Kohler had a wash down style flush like Toto, but so far the new class 6 Cimarron seems to be the best they have - watching the videos others have linked to on YouTube it still looks pretty underwhelming compared to how my Toto flushes.

That and the Aquia is now under $100 from multiple sites - I think I'm going to replace the other two toilets in my house now!

Thanks for the additional input on this month-old thread, docno. As it turns out, I gradually started shifting my thinking towards Toto (that begat a separate thread, "So, tell me about Toto toilets..."), and after much hemming and hawing, decided to go with one of the new Totos (Carlyle II) for the first of the two bathrooms we're renovating. That renovation is now about 50% done, and the toilet should be arriving in about a week (I hope!). So I can't yet assess our choice of Toto, but I'll hopefully soon have have a few weeks to see if I'm happy with the 1.28 gallons per flush Toto -- and if so, I'll order another for our master bath renovation which will get underway a few weeks later.

-- Eric

Hi Jacobse

Did the Carlyle toilets turn out as you expected? Do the toilets flush clean or does a brush need to be used? Would you choose these again?
I am looking for a one piece skirted toilet and based on postings and reviews, a single flush. The Carlyle II looks reasonable but ti would be good to see someone`s opinion.

thanks
chem79