STPP :)

I have read many threads on here about the use of STTP with detergent. It seem like it depends on how hard your water is as to how much Stpp you will need. I think a Tablespoon is all you would need in a normal load of clothes with your wonderful persil. Like you I love Persil, but it is expensive to buy but it does require very little use. There are some vidoes on you tube of a guy with a Electrolux wave touch that uses Stpp with Tide HE and you can see where it does too much if either two of the products are overused. Also there is the enviromental impact of of the use of phosphate in the sewage systems which eventually once treated go out to the streams and lakes

STPP will help if you have hard water. I don't believe you get any benefit if you are going to add it to soft water. As gates1 said, it also adds phosphates to the wastewater which is not a good thing. I believe the reason STPP is effective in hard water is due to its ability to sequester the calcium carbonate, allowing the detergent to be more effective. I don't think STPP by itself will do anything to clean your laundry, and you'd be wasting your money using it if you already have soft water.

At a cost of $29 per 5 lb pail including shipping from The Chemistry Store, the cost is up there.

STPP does more than soften water. If that's all it did, development of good phosphate-free automatic dishwasher detergents wouldn't be such a challenge. Wikipedia says STPP "provides a number of chemical functions including: sequestration of "water hardness", enabling surfactants to function effectively; pH buffering; dirt emulsification and prevention of deposition; hydrolysis of grease; and dissolving-dispersing dirt particles."

Yes, there can be environmental concerns, depending on how your wastewater is treated and where it's discharged.

Shipping cost doesn't go up much, if you buy more than one 5 lb. pail at a time. Hopefully the unopened pails will stay dry and fresh for a while.

5 lbs. comes in a 1-gallon pail, which IIRC is filled pretty full. 1 tbsp per use is 256 uses/gallon.

That said, I thought Persil's appeal is that it's an all-in-one product which does a superlative job (perhaps because they can afford to use really good phosphate substitutes?). So it's strange to hear about mixing Persil with STPP. I wonder how a cheap powder detergent (like Sears) with added STPP compares to Persil. I'd like to try Persil myself, but scented laundry products aren't welcome in my house.

My mom uses persil, love it! I do too, but cant afford it since I am laid off. Ive used Sears HE, it does have a scent, a light one, so I am sure if it will be too much for you. I kind of rank the scent level the same as persil. I dont notice the smell on clothes once dried.

Tripolyphosphates have been substituted by phosphonates.

Phosphonates, other than softening water, are peroxide stabilizers (so they enhance sodium percarbonate action).
They have a lower impact than STTP, cause they are prone to photodegradation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphonate

Here is the Dixan regular powder safety data sheet. Dixan is Henkel's italian equivalent of Persil

Here is a link that might be useful: dixan (persil) safety data sheet

It was my video, the detergent was Cheer HE, hot water and I added STPP which soften the water further and created the extra suds.
I think P&G reformulated Cheer HE again which create less suds than 6 months ago.

cleanteamofny,

I watched your vids. Thanks for posting them. I really enjoyed watching them. Your machine is beautiful. I also love the internal light you have on the machine and it looks like it washes really well.

As for the Cheer HE being less sudsing, I'd have to give an affirmative on that. P&G made all of their HE detergents less sudsing as they were getting a lot of complaints a couple of years ago when I first got my FL. I was one of the complaintants. LOL!

The previous HE detergents didn't work well in the really low water using HE machines, which I have, which was leading to extra rinses and a lot of build up for people with machines like mine. And there are a lot of really low water using machines like mine. My machine uses 70% less water than a regular, average TL. Where as the previous HE machines that were coming out when Tide HE came out used about 40 to 50% less. The percentage difference ended up being a big deal as far as sudsing and rinsing goes.

Anyway, it's not your imaginiation, P&G detergents are less sudsing now. My machine loves Tide now, but my skin currently doesn't. My skin likes something else which the shall go unmentioned so I do not end up with detergent bottle pelted at my head. ROFL!

LOL.

I'm glad that you call P&G and I would not be too surprised if they are online checking what us real consumers think of their product to improve over the calls that they receive on a daily basis.
At one time I've said if KitchenAid would make a fridge in Cobalt Blue I would buy one and would you believe after posting on THS one was made maybe from reading these posts.
You know that they probably read this forum and sometimes listen to make changes because, once it's on the web, it's there for life.....

Well I can tell you that Tide HE and Gain HE suds heavily when using Stpp. I just bought some, and used it on my whites. 1 Tablespoon of stpp and 2 of Tide and Gain when I use it in a load as I have alternate them. I guess I will have to go back to just persil. Even with no additives, it gets my clothes cleaner than any American soap, even with the addition to Tide. I will give what I dont use and want away to my friends. BWT clean teamof ny...thats one nice machine you have. Does the heater work in all cycles?

Well I can see where adding STPP to Tide and Cheer might make it suds a lot as Tide and Cheer already have a phosphonate in them. The Phosphonate in Tide and Cheer is DTPA which coincidentally is also used to remove radiation and poisons from the human body in the medical field.

Phosphonates like DTPA work as chelating agents. They basically bond with metals and other materials and sequester them to be flushed away. They are not as effective as phosphates, but they are still pretty darn good.

gates1, I've actually been using the "Free" version of Sears HE powder since we got our Miele. Given that we want to use a non-scented powder with the official "HE" logo, it's the only choice I know about. It gives us far better results with the Miele, then we got from Tide Free liquid in our old top-loader. Sudsing is practically a non-issue; can get some suds with a very small load that has room to splash around.

Everyone in the family, except me, uses nothing but the Sears powder in the machine, and has no interest in adding anything else. Recently I've been adding a tablespoon of STPP to most loads, because it removes any off-odors (my sense of smell is too acute for my own good), and also seems to make items like towels come out softer. The lower the wash temperature, the more pronounced is the overall difference that STPP makes, I think. My wastewater goes into a septic tank, so any environmental effects are limited to my property.

Am I correct that Persil, except Persil for colors, includes an oxygen bleach? Sears Free powder doesn't, so I add oxygen bleach to some loads. Still finishing the Clorox 2 Free powder (hard to find) that I got in Wal-Mart last year. Someone here pointed out that the washing soda in Clorox 2 contributes to sudsing. When it's finished, I'll use the Ecover non-chlorine bleach powder that person recommended. It's pure percarbonate. Can also buy percarbonate from chemistrystore.com.

In europe (guess also in Oz) sodium percarboante is sold as Napisan. Once it was used to sanitize diapers @ low temps, now its also used to sanitize laundry when water temp is lower than 140°F. It is effective with water at 85°F at least. There is also the liquid (it's just plain hydrogen peroxide H2O2). Both are safe even on dark clothes @ 140°F. Just be frugal ... or you'll rinse forever :)

Suburbanmd, my only suds issue was when I added Stpp, other than that, they are not an issue. If you are looking for an oxygen booster, try the Walmart brand of it, it comes in HE formula and friends tell me it works great, and doesnt add additional sudsing issues, they always like the HE walmart brand of soap and fabric softener. When I purchased Persil in the past, I never felt like I had to add anything extra to the wash and I like that a lot. It gets expensive to buy all this laundry stuff. Target has been another store that I have had good luck finding HE supplies. I too have a septic system, when I had it pumped out the last time, the guy told me to seriously limit the use of clorine bleach, and any other household cleaners that contained it. I dont use bleach in my wash, since I have a FL, I find I dont need it. Will Stpp harm a septic system?

Suburbanmd....You say you'd like to try Persil, but scents are not good in your household. Persil makes Megaperls powder detergent in Sensitive, no scent. I personally Love!! scent in my laundry room, but I have tried the Persil Sensitive...and it is (of course) amazing in terms of cleaning! You should try it. Yes, the cost seems very steep up front, but so little is needed in a front loader, especially a Miele!

Those of you with a Miele W48XX, how much Persil do you use for a full load of average soiled clothing? Do you know the hardness of your water? The reason I ask is that I use 1-1.5 TBS in my Asko, any more and I would see suds. In the Miele, I've used up to 4 TBS to a load and barely see a bubble. Rinses come out so clear with no trace of suds. I use a whole house water softener.

Seeing as I have a brand new machine, I want to minimize the risk of it smelling "funky" over time. My research tells me that most build-up is caused by overuse of fabric softener, which I rarely (or sparingly) use. Mold and mildew can be partially attributed to insufficient detergency, which allows soiling that would normally be held in suspension by the detergent to start building up on the outer drum and rubberized parts.

Henkel recommends 65 ml (4.4 TBS) for a regularly soiled load in the softest water conditions. I'm pretty sure the load size Henkel had in mind was that of the average European front-loader, which is about half to two-thirds that of the W48XX. Can we really get by with only 1-2 TBS with in these new machines and not expect a smelly, moldy backlash?

I use no more than 22ml of Persil sensitive Megapearl powder @60C for my load of white...

For color, I use 22ml of Persil Color Megapearl powder @40C...

and yes, I have Miele W4840 and naturally soft water here in Vancouver...

ps: all clothes are super clean with nice Persil smell, no less! :)

larsi, I had read that Persil Sensitive has no dyes, but is lightly scented. So in your experience it's completely without scent?

gates1, most dishwasher detergents still contain phosphates, with no septic tank issues that I've heard of. As for chlorine bleach, despite all the warnings about using it with a septic tank, I'm not convinced that it presents a real problem, when used in household quantities. What is a few cups or less a week, compared to the several hundred gallons in even the smallest tank? Personally I check the sludge and scum levels in my septic tank every few months. If they're thin layers, and the outlet tee is in place, then I know that solids aren't flowing into the leach field to clog it. Also, I have an outlet filter for additional reassurance.

However, I've had little use for chlorine bleach since I got the Miele. Oxygen bleach in a 140degF wash whitens much better, compared to chlorine bleach in a "hot" wash in my old top-loader.

Oh, and on the subject of the functions of STPP, see the article below. It's from a biased source, but that doesn't mean it's all wrong.

Here is a link that might be useful: Phosphates in Automatic Dishwasher Detergents