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Granite Installed. Can they adjust still?

Lil B
13 years ago

Granite was installed in our new build yesterday. It's Chocolate Brown in a Leather finish. I'm a bit annoyed at a couple of things. I'm wondering what can be done, and if I should push for any remedy.

The island -- one edge is built with decorative wooden posts, and since we have an Ogee edge on the island, the granite guy advised not following the contour of the posts, but instead just cut the slab in a rectangle. On the opposite side of the island, it is flat cabinetry. The problem is that on the wooden post side, the granite overhand looks too small. It's barely overhanging the posts. It just seems like they could have slid the stone down and made more overhand on the post side. I asked them last night while they were finishing the work, and they told me it had already been glued in place and the only way to take it off would be breaking the stone. Is this true??? I'm so mad at myself for not being there every minute of the install. Even 1/2" would have made a huge difference.

The other annoying problem is the bar pass through to the living room. We don't have much of a bar overhang, which I knew. The granite templater suggested that we curve the bar. Now, I think it just looks like a bad edge. You can feel a few bumps with your hands and even see some areas that are not a smooth edge. Can they buff this on site? Any drawbacks to this? It looks like they will have to skim the edges on both sides to make it even if I go that route.

I'll try to post pics later. Sorry, no pics right now.

Comments (28)

  • ellendi
    13 years ago

    When I was upset with my granite choice, I thought about having it removed. I was told that not only could it be removed, but that the slab would be good enough to be used by someoe else! In other words, these are experts in installation and can also remove without damage. I think the scary part is since your installers say it cannot be done, maybe they are uncomfortable doing it. ( Whole kitchens can be removed and used over!) Try to post pictures. Sometimes, we are too critical and if you get enough opinions, you might see that it is something no one else would notice. Each step of construction, we tend to over think and focus on what is currently being done. Over all when the kitchen is done, will this imperfection really be noticed?

  • loves2cook4six
    13 years ago

    First off they CAN take it off even once it's been glued - it's just a HUGE PITA and obviously something they don't want to do. And for 1/2" I personally don't know if it would be worth it.

    From my own experience every little thing is a big deal while it's all coming together but down the road when the kitchen is finished and you're living in it, will that 1/2" really be such a big deal or really noticeable.

    As for the bar, you can buff on site too but it can result in uneven light refraction so you will see the buffed edge shine differently in different light and from different angles.

  • Lil B
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    All good advice. Thanks.

    Updated with some pics. I couldn't get a good pic of the pass thru bar area. A wise friend of mine did tell me last week, that we should paint a "C" on our house....C for Compromise, and try to remember that not everything will be perfect. But knowing which things are worth speaking my mind about, is not my forte.

    Notice end at left is the "short" end.




    Overall I think it looks good, and I love the Chocolate Brown Leather finish. I'm a bit disappointed that they had to put the roughest parts in our island, but that's just the way the templating worked out.

  • babushka_cat
    13 years ago

    i tend to agree with you, the granite does not look centered on the island. i think would bug me and i would ask for it to be corrected.

  • michellemarie
    13 years ago

    I agree the granite is not centered on the island. I just had my granite countertops installed about 3 weeks ago and even though I love them I still get a little sick to my stomach knowing that my kitchen countertops cost more than all of the cabinets cost me in my whole house 14 years ago. I would fully expect when someone pays top dollar for a high end material and install that it be done correctly. I have a few areas in my kitchen I have to live with due to the fact that a wall was not straight and the cabinet installers screwed up on my island. I have to live with these and I accept that. But there is no excuse on this island other than sloppy workmanship. My project is huge( a 3 story 2500 sq foot addition) and of all the workers I have had to deal with on my project the granite company was the sleaziest. Just from reading this forum I think it is a industry wide problem. I think you will have to hold your ground on this if it really bugs you. I don't think anyone else will ever notice, but you wrote out the check so ask yourself if you can live with it.
    Also, yes granite can be removed and reinstalled. The house 2 houses down from me was sold 2 years ago and the new owners had all NEW cabinets built and they used the existing granite in the house because it wasn't that old.

  • weissman
    13 years ago

    Personally, I think it looks fine - your island is not symmetric and I think the way it sits on the posts is just right. Of course, you're the one who has to live with it but I don't think it's worth the hassle of having them move it.

  • lennym
    13 years ago

    First of all, I'm a bit disappointed that you partially blame yourself for not being there every minute of the install. That's not your job! The installers should have assumed that the slab should be centered, and if someone thought it should not be centered they should have asked before they glued. I agree that it does not look right; it looks like an obvious mistake.

    In the end it should be the way YOU want it. IMO they made a mistake and you should insist that they make it right.

  • lennym
    13 years ago

    As for the bar. If they left bumps and rough edges they can certainly polish and smooth the bumps on site. Downside is a bit of dust.

    When we couldn't slide in our slide-in stove all the way because they had not left a sufficient space in the stone they came back and ground and polished the stone in place until the stove fit in.

    They usually can do anything on site, but sometimes it may be easier for them to remove the piece and rework it at their shop.

  • pharaoh
    13 years ago

    What does your drawings say about the overhang? If it does not say anything about the overhang, i doubt the installer will take the risk of removing the slab.

    I have to disagree with others about this - you HAVE to supervise such installs (for your own peace of mind). Even though a common person may say that it should be centered, a designer may have specified asymmetric overhang. Only supervision can avoid such gray areas.
    Hope your installer makes it right for you.

  • paintergirl94
    13 years ago

    That island slab is just too small for the base. Also, Pharaoh is absolutely correct, you need to be there if you are the GC. It appears that the template was simply done wrong and should have been caught at that point.
    With that said, they can certainly remove the slab and replace, and they can fix the edge on the curve. I would call the company and have someone who can make a decision come to the job site.
    There are two critical points during a kitchen install: delivery of the cabinets (to inspect for damage) and granite templating.
    With that said, remove the emotion and speak to the granite co. Love your granite, BTW!!

  • lennym
    13 years ago

    Well, let me put it another way. The overhang on one side looks to be more than twice the overhang on the other side.

    Who made that decision? Did they consult with you about it? If not it's their error no matter where you were during the installation.

    We, as consumers, put in a counter once or twice a lifetime. The counter people put one in once or twice every day. IMO it's their business to make certain we understand clearly what the choices are.

  • Lil B
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Just to clarify -- We do have a GC for our home build. I feel guilty for not being there every minute of the install, because nothing replaces your own scrutiny. We do not have a kitchen designer or any designer for any of our selections. The GC helped design the main components of the home, cabinets, etc. I have researched selections. I was there for the granite templating. I know there was some discussions on how to do the Ogee edge around those posts. The cabinet base is not a complete rectangle there, because of the way the posts come out. I don't however remember that the granite wouldn't be centered over the island. That just looks like common sense.

    When I asked the installers on Friday evening about shifting it down. They replied that it was templated that way.

    I think that going to be my word against the templater, but the fact that it's noticeably not centered. I'm hoping the GC will agree with me that it's not quality work.

    On another note, it may get complicated in my battle -- I chose to go with a different granite fabricator than GC is used to working with. There was significant cost savings for this stone. The granite fabricator that I did choose has a storefront in an upscale area that sells high-end tile as well. Although GC could not speak of their work on granite, they felt comfortable with using them because of their presence in our community.

  • lennym
    13 years ago

    I guess I'll get on my soap box one more time.

    Strictly speaking the GC supervises his employees, but does not SUPERVISE his subs, who are themselves INDEPENDENT contractors. What he does is specify and then inspect and approve their work. There are GCs who are doing more than one job at a time and obviously can't be everywhere.

    One thing you haven't told us but would be useful to know is how the overhangs on the other two sides compare with the ones you have shown.

    If it's the templater who made the decision to have unequal sides without consulting you and making it perfectly clear what he is doing, then the fault lies at his feet. But like the installer he also works for the granite fabricator.

    Still I think the installers should have asked before gluing.

  • montana800
    13 years ago

    You paid that company to do a job, they did not do it to meet your specifications and until they do, do not pay them or authorize them to be paid. IT IS YOUR MONEY, GC or NO GC. What does their contract say? Letting them know you have many friends you will not recommend them to might get them to see things your way. It is not your job to be on site during every job. They should know how to do a job professionally, not make a decision on their own like that. It is your house and they know it is your house.

  • montana800
    13 years ago

    By the way, I completely disagree with Pharaoh. The drawings not saying anything about the placement of the granite on the island does not automatically make it so that you cannot demand that it be centered. Anyone with any common sense can look at that install and know that they sent an unskilled person to install that piece on that island. It looks terrible and for what you probably paid for it, it needs to be professionally done. Even a child could see that in that situation it should be centered, not 2 inches on one end and 5 inches on the other.

  • Lil B
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    On one side of the island, we have the garbage pullout. That side has a 2" overhand.

    The other side (with the posts)is not completely rectangular because of the way the posts are affixed. See pic. The overhang is about 1/2" post edge to granite edge. And 1 7/8" from recessed edge to granite edge.

    Sorry, I don't have the long edge overhang measurements. I don't think that's a problem.

    Admittedly, the island posts are causing a bit of the problem. Where do you take the overhang measurements on that side? At the posts or the recessed edge? It's 1/8" off-center even at the recessed edge.

    I've notified our job supervisor, and I am hoping that he can get something done about it.

    BTW - there was no formal contract with details from the Granite fabricator/installer. No drawings that I've seen either. With this entire house project, I have had the most difficult time insisting on details be put in writing. We chose our GC because they had the most business professionalism, and we drafted a tight contract together. For a few items that I have been working on outside of GC's workscope (window treatments, landscape, irrigation, fencing, outdoor grill), I'm pulling teeth to get people to provide a detailed, WRITTEN quote. I'm *trying* to insist on a certain amount of detail, but so far it seems that they are just not familiar of working this way.

    I would love to have responsibilities and work scope spelled out in detail, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be practical always. You can say that I'm the customer and I can dedict what I want...but apparently the economy is not bad ENOUGH here...people aren't willing to bend over backwards to get your work. There's some give and take!

  • avesmor
    13 years ago

    I almost hate to agree here, but yeah - that overhang bugs me. And if it had come out of my pocket, and I had to look at it every day, it would bug me even more. You know what else bugs me? The gaps between the wood and the granite. Will they be filling those, do you know?

    You want to hear something scary? I'm building a house now, and just met to finalize materials in the kitchen. I told my builder I wanted to 1) select the granite slabs, 2) be part of the templating process and not just be there, but have some say (as long as my say was doable) in where seams went, how slabs matched up, etc. and 3) be onsite for installation. She told me she's only had one previous customer pick out the slab, and no one there for templating or installation. That MOST of her customers just pick the granite based on the 6x12 sample the cabinet shop keeps, and end of story. And she's a custom builder! I can't fathom that, unless -maybe- you're building over geographic distance. I've seen two samples of our granite in the same store, and not known they were the same granite - they looked that different.

    Scary stuff!

  • pharaoh
    13 years ago

    Anyone with any common sense can look at that install and know that they sent an unskilled person to install that piece on that island. It looks terrible and for what you probably paid for it, it needs to be professionally done. Even a child could see that in that situation it should be centered, not 2 inches on one end and 5 inches on the other.

    As you see from the latest photo, your claim that even a 'child' could see.. is nonsense. Sorry.

    The skirt of the island and the legs are recessed differently. It appears that the overhang is indeed close to 2" at the majority of the island. The legs have to be treated differently. The overhang has to be specified and not simply 'common' sensed...

    In case there are no drawings, the client has be state this or supervise it during installation. In the absence of this, they simply used an even overhang all around. What would have happened if they had shifted the slab more towards the legs? Then you would have had a short overhang on the other side and a deep overhang over the skirt.
    It is simply a matter of personal choice and not of 'common' sense. And personal choices should be voiced before, and not complained about after the fact.

    OP: This post is not directed towards you but at the others who are unfairly blaming the installer. My hope for you is that they can fix it to your liking :)

  • lennym
    13 years ago

    Pharaoh, you are way off base here.

    No drawings: that's unprofessional! When my quartz counters were installed I signed off on drawings at contract. Then I signed off on detailed drawings of the templating. They wouldn't cut a piece of stone without my approval of the detailed plans.

    You write, "The overhang has to be specified and not simply 'common' sensed... " FINE; THE CUSTOMER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ASKED WHAT SHE WANTED WHEN THE TEMPLATING WAS DONE. This was NOT a decision that the templater or the installer should have made. It is not they who pay for and will live with the results.

    As I wrote above, the homeowner has little experience with counter installation. All the experience is on the fabricator's side, and therefore all the obligation to get it THE WAY THE CUSTOMER WANTS.

    This was, all around, a shoddy job and very unprofessionally executed. IMO home4sale should withhold payment (if still possible) and insist that ALL defects be corrected and the counters made as she wants them even if it means cutting another slab (or two)!

  • pharaoh
    13 years ago

    OP: Let us know what happens. I am curious to know how this is handled (by GC, templater, installer, and OP) and who pays for what.

  • classicalone
    13 years ago

    I have to add my voice to the group that says it doesn't look right. It should overhang the posts the same amount that it overhangs the other side. The fact that the posts are out further than the wood piece that connects the posts, doesn't matter. The edge over the posts is what is noticable and distracting. I agree that any professional doing this job should've done it better.

  • Lil B
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Update - We met with the big chief of our GC to address my concern. He doesn't feel the installer did anything wrong, as he can tell they were centering the slab longways from the area between the posts. ALTHOUGH, he does see my concern also. I guess I'm not getting a straight answer. He does admit they should have asked for my opinion before gluing permanently. In an attempt to rectify, he is willing to "meet me halfway" with the cost of a new slab. He feels confident that the slab will break when they remove it from the island. He warns me that I would need to see if I can find another slab that goes with the rest of my granite.

    I'm not happy with the "meet me halfway" approach. I believe with this grade of granite, we have to buy an entire slab, even for the island only. It's $45/SF.

    I didn't voice my dissatisfaction with that approach yet. He is still going back to the granite fabricator to see what options they may suggest.

    *If* they are not willing to make it right on their OWN dime -- what type of discount should I ask for due to the error? I'm likening it to buying a new car with hail damage...there's a discount there.

    I would still notice the misalignment, but at least I would get paid something for their mistake. I don't think its fair for me to pay anything.

  • Nancy in Mich
    13 years ago

    I am with Pharaoh on this one.

    With the two big posts on the one end, it is impossible to get the same amount of overhang on all sides. So far we have just been talking about the two shorter ends and the overhang there not being equal. Of course they are not equal. The two posts extend out further than the rest of the perimeter of the island. Say, for grins, that you convince the granite company to remake the top. They make it so that the overhang above the posts is equal to the overhang above the apron on the other side of the island. Now look at the view of the corner like you posted alone, above. The lip extending over the short, end side of the island will now be longer than the lip over the post on the long side of the island! You would look at the corner, see the different overhangs on two sides of the same post and say it was wrong.

    What you saw when you looked at the island the first time was that the lip over the posts did not stick out as far as the lip over the side without the posts. You are right. This is true. It is true because the POSTS THEMSELVES create the asymmetry. Go stand at the end of the island with one post on each side in front of you. Measure the overhanging lip of granite above the apron that is between the posts. If that is the same amount of overhang that exists above the apron on the other three sides, the top was made correctly.

  • Lil B
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    I do appreciate different viewpoints. I wish I could find a way to come to peace with how the granite is installed.

    I have to make two points 1) I wasn't consulted about this placement. I have to live with it, I pay for it, then, I think it should be to my satisfaction and 2) I can't find any vantage point where you would see both short sides simultaneously. I feel it's more important that the living room view (looking at the long sides) look right. The island looks offcenter from the step out of our entry and into the living room. The post side apron area is really only visible while standing several feet away, or seated. And again, you can't see the non-post side simultaneously, so who cares!

    I know that the overhang between the posts, above the apron would be more. I would be completely fine with that. Most people I have shown in person agree that it's not right. I did seek the advice of another unrelated experienced construction person, and he thought the placement was fine considering the installer was aiming to make the apron overhang even.

    In my opinion, this is a case where perception should win over preciseness.

  • Lil B
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Final update - after the GC tried to convince me that it wasn't really wrong, he finally talked to the installer. Apparently, the glue wasn't so impossible to break loose. When they came on their next visit to cut the faucet holes in all the granite and marble, they removed the island granite and fixed it! It's all in one piece! Exactly like I wanted. They weren't at the job the entire day. Apparently, it was a bunch of whining and not that much work.

    On another side note -- they cut the granite pieces beside the rangetop too short. They lacked 1 inch, so they had to take a piece back to their shop and splice another inch onto it. So, now I have another seam. Arghh...but they actually did a good job on the seam, so it doesn't bother me so bad.

    Persistence did pay off!

  • kompy
    13 years ago

    There could have been one more solution. I have seen people attach cute towel bars to the end of an island....then the overhang would look on purpose.

    Glad they were able to reposition.
    K

  • gr8daygw
    12 years ago

    Very creative solution Kompy. Wow I just read this whole thread and am so glad it all worked out. I've been on the forum a lot lately as we are reno-ing and I'm not able to do much housework or leave the house to even go for a walk, sorry to be commenting on everything, lol!!! Even posts from last year!!!