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cj47_gw

Deeper counters? Where, how?

cj47
13 years ago

Hi All,

We're closing in on the final layout in my kitchen, my KD has "moved on" from the company and is no longer available, and I'm trying to finish up the details on my own. Except for you guys!! Here is today's question:

I know that some of you have made your counters deeper--I seem to remember Fori did hers at 30 inches. I like this idea, it will allow for work space even though I have coffee equipment out on the counter, and also might hide the fact that my fridge might be 33 inches deep. Having it stick out past 24 inch counters would be pretty awful. It's on an outside wall, so it can't be recessed the way I'd hoped, and I really am not a fan of the counterdepth refrigerators. My cabs are custom, so they can be made any depth I specify. Soooo, for those of you who made counters deeper...

Were they 30 inch, 28, how deep? And do you like it?

Did you then have to do them all at 30 inches, to make the corners work? I'm planning a corner lazy susan, and am wondering what this does to that.

What about your uppers; are those deeper as well?

How did you have your sink placed? Normally, but with more space behind?

If you have a cooktop, how did you place your hood so that it's still centered over the cooktop and gets good capture?

Any other "gotchas" I need to consider before discussing this with my builder?

Thanks for any and all opinions. My current layout is attached, with the counters at 30 inches. I need to adjust the aisles a little yet, I'm planning on 42 inches. Do you think that's enough between the dishwasher and the island? I'm also considering moving the DW to the end of the cabinet run on that wall--by the door. Please forgive the odd island--I just couldn't line up the cabs right with the software, and need to get this posted so I can make a run to Sams Club for supplies, but that's another post.

If you see anything else that's obviously Really Bad, please give me a yell. I'm at that point where things are starting to fall off the radar, and it's worrying me.

Thanks,

Cj

Comments (22)

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I feel like I now your layout intimately by now! :-) If you make the perimeter runs deeper, you will affect your aisles, then your island size. I think you are walking a fine line to have everything fit as it is, so in this space, I could be happy with using the island as the deeper counter space. But you have a good point about the standard depth fridge and maybe could give up a few inches of depth on the island to be able to deepen the stove-wall run?

    I want to point out that you are representing your table too small, so I'm afraid you're giving an inaccurate impression of the space between the table & chairs and the island....You're showing your table at 2 ft deep. Even with the table against the wall, I think you'll have 1 ft less between the table area and island than this plan shows, even with no one sitting at either place.

    To answer more of your questions, we have one run in our kitchen where the counters are deeper. The stove run is 27 or 28 inches. This is because we have the microwave (and a big one to fit family-sized baking dishes) in the upper cabinet, so it would protrude quite a ways out over the counter. So we put in deeper upper to hold it, and deeper counter underneath so that the microwave isn't in our foreheads if we use that counter as workspace. If you do deeper counters, it's nice to have deeper uppers for more storage and easier reach.

    If you do a corner susan, you'd just pull it out so the face is where you want it. On our stove run, all of our base cabs are standard depth, but just installed a few inches out from the wall. (Firred out) Then there is a cleat along the wall to support the back edge of the countertop.

    I still think with the fridge on almost the opposite side of the island from the sink, you could benefit greatly from a prep sink. If you're not going to have one, I'd put the dw door on the other side of the sink so the kids can access it without it getting in your way as you're going from stove to sink with a hot pot of water or something.

  • flatcoat2004
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have 30" deep counters and love them. If only that it makes it hard for my dog to countersurf ... he can't reach all the way to the back :-)

    My layout is simpler than yours though, mine is essentially a large galley kitchen, and I don't like corner cabinets, so I don't have any. I just have a straight 14' run on one wall, with sink, dishwasher and slide-in range, topped by 15" deep wall cabinets (great for large dinner plates !). There's no counter on the opposite wall of the galley, since it's mostly taken up by pantry space, refrigerator, a large doorway and a corner for the dog's bed :-)

    I couldn't afford to have deeper cabinet boxes made, so I just used standard 24" deep boxes and had the carpenter frame out from the wall by 6" or so.

    My sink is large (and I love it, a Franke Orca), positioned with extra space behind it. I keep some tall potted plants there.

    Depending how tall you are, the backs of the counters can be a little hard to reach. I'm 5'7" and it's a mild stretch. The deeper upper cabs can also be a little difficult to reach into, so keep a step stool handy.

  • wa8b
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have 30" deep countertops with 15" deep uppers above them. The extra 6" of depth provides a much more generous work space, and allows a few small appliances to live on the countertop without being in the way. The 15" deep uppers provide a good bit of additional storage, allowing glasses to be lined up 4-deep, instead of 3-deep, and room for over-sized plates and chargers (the dark plates on the center shelf are 12-1/2" in diameter). I also had extra shelves made so that I could space them at optimal intervals and not waste space.

    I chose a Blanco SuperSingle sink with a wall-mounted faucet. The sink is positioned with a generous ledge behind it, and with about 4" of space between the sink and the front of the counter. I have an extra-long reticulated faucet spout to reach all areas of the sink.

    The 36" cooktop is centered front-to-back in the countertop and centered under the range hood for full coverage. The 48" Vent-A-Hood under-cabinet range hood is pulled out 3" from the back wall to align with the 15" deep upper cabinets. There is a 3" stainless steel filler panel between the back of the range hood and the wall.

    You can see the spacer between the back of the hood and the stainless steel backsplash in this image:

    I have 48" of space between the counter on one side of the kitchen, and the counter on the other side. It's generous, so you'll probably be fine with 42".

  • cj47
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rhome, you certainly do know my layout by now!! When I think of where we started with this, it pretty much blows my mind. :-) I recall that nobody really liked the first layout at all! But I'm not quite done yet, LOL. I have pretty much decided that I do want a prep sink but have not decided quite where to put it yet. I know that you think it should go down by the ovens, but I'm leaning towards putting it more towards the range, so that it's easier to drain pasta and the like. I don't want to go trucking around with big hot vessels of water. I expect that area to be my main prep area as well, as it faces out into the kitchen; so I guess we'll see. As to island depth, I'm probably going to have to make it just a bit more narrow. I believe that the 180FX come in 5 foot widths, and I don't want to have to put a seam into the island.

    I thought the table was showing at 36 inches, thanks for bringing it to my attention. I replaced it with a 36 inch table. As I've told Rhome previously, we will most likely keep the table up against the wall, unless there is company. At first, there will very likely not even be a table, until we see what would fit comfortably there and recover a little bit financially from the remodel. I would like to plan ahead a bit for something to fit there, though.

    If I do the stove wall at 30 inches, I'd probably do the sink wall as well--I'd like some space behind the sink to put some pots of herbs. I'll see what it will cost to do that. I have some large platters, so it would be nice to have the deeper uppers as well. Do you think it will crowd the area too much? The island has to be at least 24 inches wide to accomodate two people sitting on one end.

    Thanks much for your input, Rhome and flatcoat2004!

    Cj

  • cj47
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wa8b, thank you for the very specific answers, and the terrific photos! I appreciate it, the sink and the hood are just what I needed to see.
    Thanks,
    Cj

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Instead of deepening the whole sink wall, could you box out the window like Erikanh and Mamadadapaige did? That moves the window back from the sink, but doesn't require deepening the whole wall of counters.

    Remember that if you deepen the counter by 6", it shortens the adjacent run by 6"...so 6" less width for cabinets...but maybe you already have that figured out.

    I think you mean you need the island to be 48" wide to accommodate 2 people on the end?

    Erikanh's window inside and from outside. (I REALLY wish I had done this):

  • Fori
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmm. Mine was easier because it's a galley. I wanted to do the deep cabinets on the fridge wall and get a real fridge but it didn't work out that way. My lower cabinets are 30" deep (so add an inch or so for counter hang) and uppers are a corresponding 18" there. Extra 6" on bottom--> extra 6" on top. I'm 5'1" and not willing to be able to reach less. (Also, it's a family house so likely to have kids in it so it's nice to keep things kid-friendly).

    With your layout, you'll need to keep light switches and other things in mind. I have to stretch for one unimportant light switch but if it were my garbage disposal I'd hate it.

    Get a pullout under the sink so you don't waste storage! My sink is placed way forward, even more than normal (short arms).

  • cj47
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd love a boxed window--but you have to roof a box, and early on we decided that it wouldn't "look right" from the outside with the big windows up top on the cathedral ceiling. I was sad about that, but I'd already given up my dream of a walk in pantry as well, so I was on a roll. :-( It's funny, when you're building on a space you think you can do whatever you want--but really, you can't. There are things that have just not fit into the space we had, even though it's a very generous space.

    And yes, I meant 48 inches, not 24 inches. I was thinking 24 inches per person sitting there and that's what my fingers 'said'.

    Fori, thank you!! Things like "light switches are further back" never crossed my mind--that's the kind of "gotcha" that I meant.

    Are you guys thinking that the layout is becoming too crowded? I can shrink the island to 4 feet wide, but that would then make the workspace on the cleanup side shorter. It might be OK if I put the garbage pullout under the sink, as Fori suggested. I like that idea, if we can make it fit.

    Thanks, everyone. I'd so hoped to have this whole process done earlier--but it just did not work out that way.

    Cj

  • Fori
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My sink pullout is just a shallow drawer on the bottom, like you'd see in a regular lower cabinet installed by someone who doesn't realize how nice drawers are for pans. You know, open both doors then pull out--something I'd hate to do daily but I can get out the dish soap without opening the whole shebang. As bad as crawling around looking for something under a sink is, it's 6" worse when it's 6" deeper. That little can of silver polish migrates to the back...

    I was concerned about my kitchen looking like a cave with big upper cabinets but it's fine (I don't actually have many). Your layout is nice and open so it's not a concern.

    The corner cabinets at the end of the sink wall though...if your cabinet guy is good (creative?), the bottom can be done. But the upper corner cabinet could turn into an inaccessible hole. But it would sure hold a lot. Get some newspaper or boxes or something and mock that up. If you pull all the uppers forward (or make them deeper), it'll help, but unless you have some tall people around, it could be tricky. (Looks like a good place for an appliance garage though, and that's not something I think I've ever said before!).

  • cj47
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hm....my DH had wanted a TV in the kitchen so that we could all sit at the island on Movie Night (ie, Sunday night) and watch while having dinner. If I do deeper cabs on the bottom and the top, that corner area might be a good place for a TV. And believe you me, I have NEVER said that before, either!! What is my kitchen coming to? No walk in pantry, but an appliance garage or maybe a TV? OTOH, it might be just worth it to see DH's face when I tell him that I am actually putting a TV in the kitchen. :-p

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You know that overcrowding was always a concern I had with your plan. You had your island size carefully figured so that you could seat the people you wanted, fit your dish drawer, etc. Do you really want to adjust that to have deeper perimeters?

    As Fori said, she has a galley, so no big island on which to do big projects and prep, so deeper counters offered her something she didn't couldn't otherwise have. Sometimes it's easy when reading through the forum to try to have EVERYthing...but it may cause you to give up something that's more important. It is good, though, to go ahead and consider and try all the possible adjustments in your layout and decide which compromises you'll be happy with now so you don't wonder later.

    I only have the one run of deep counters...Can't say I don't like it, but not necessarily feeling it's that particularly amazing, since I use my island most often as workspace. I also can't say I miss the extra depth anywhere else, except maybe behind the sink. You could possibly do a compromise of adding 3 inches to the counters, bump out the stove and sink 3 inches more, and not have to adjust the island as much? Or just do the bumping out of the sink and maybe stove, without having to adjust the island at all...

  • pinch_me
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    FYI corners. If you have 30 inch deep counters on two sides, the corner will be quite a ways from where you stand in front of your cabs. My counters are only 26 deep (I had wanted 30" but I didn't have the space) and both corners are a stretch for me. I'm 5'4". My counters are 36 inches tall. I wish they were 34 inches tall. I thought I would get used to it but it's a struggle.

  • Buehl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Late to the party, but, I though I'd chime in...


    Island Seating....If you want 4 people to be able to sit comfortably at your island on the corner like you have it (and since you appear to want to use it full-time, you should) be sure to have: 48" linear space on one side for seating and 63" (48" + 15") of linear space on the other side. This is so two seats are not sharing "knee/leg space" at the corner. It does look like you have about 12" "extra" right now for this, but with your talk of changing the island, I wanted to be sure it doesn't get forgotten!
    At least a 15" overhang on both sides b/c it's not just for a quick snack or very occasional use. Please don't skimp here...if you're going to be using this seating full-time for all your meals, I think this is much more important for you than for someone who just uses their island/peninsula for snacks, occasional meals, or kids-only. Again, it looks like you've provided at least a 15" overhang, but if you change the island I wouldn't want this forgotten either!


    Prep sink....I think the best place for the prep sink is probably on the cooktop side on the sink end. As you state, it makes it easier to use it from the cooktop for filling/dumping pots (a simple turn, no steps needed).
    It also keeps it out of the landing zone for the refrigerator (the end of the island)
    It keeps it out of the face of someone sitting on the bottom end of the island...more important than usual b/c you appear to be planning to use island seating full-time. It also eliminates the possibility of splashing that person.
    It also makes it better for workflow...take things out of the refrigerator and place them on the island. Go to the island and immediately begin prepping w/o having to move the food again for better access to water (i.e., you don't have to move it to either next to the main sink if you don't have a prep sink or to the other side of the prep sink if the prep sink is on the seating end).
    However, you have the Trash Pullout on that end, so some thinking about this is needed. I think putting the sink in the middle of island will make the island less useful for prep b/c you won't have a big enough expanse of workspace on either side to work. Ideally, you should have at least a 36" span of counter for decent prepping. (I had 24" In my old kitchen and it was nowhere near enough...it was one of the major driving forces in my remodel.)

    I'm wondering if the trash pullout could be b/w the cooktop and the corner...


    Range Hood....How you handle the range hood depends on what you do about the cooktop. If you pull the cooktop out the additional 6" as well, then... You might consider getting a deeper range hood...say a 27" deep one. This way, the hood can be installed normally and will cover the all but 3" of the front of the cooktop.
    Another option is to build out the wall a bit where the hood is mounted...from the bottom of the hood to the ceiling b/w the upper cabinets.
    Of the two options above, I personally I think the deeper hood is better aesthetically.
    Yet another option is to do what Wa8b did and put in a stainless steel filler b/w the wall and the hood. This works best, btw, with the type of hood that has a cabinet above it (like Wa8b) or that's has a full mantle built to the ceiling (or close to the ceiling)....b/c then the "filler" isn't obvious. This is also an aesthetically pleasing option.
    One thing, though, unless your entire family is fairly tall or at least has long arms, I would hesitate to center the cooktop in the 30" deep counter...it will make reaching the back burners more difficult and require stretching your arm lower across items on the front burners (b/c your arms have to stretch farther, they have to be lower to be able to utilize the full length of your arms).

  • Fori
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree that a cooktop on deep counters should still be a normal distance from the front. Not just because I'm short, but think of all the junk you could keep back there! A nice shelf for decorative stuff or something. Sort of like a niche, but without the niche.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We just installed our hood out from the wall and had a piece of wood wrapped in stainless steel to match and used it as a spacer. Having the cooktop out from the wall is actually nice in respect to keeping your backsplash cleaner, too.

    Still wouldn't want the prep sink on the main sink end of the island, which puts it straight across from the cooktop. It limits the flexibility and advantages of having 2 sinks, it's only available to the cook at the stove, and is in the prime prep space. I can walk a few steps with a pot of water, or turn a bit to a sink that's a little bit off to the side, but when I'm moving chopped veggies from prep area to stove, I like to go straight across... the shortest path possible. I have a tendency to grab handfuls and move quickly before I leave a path of chopped veggies across the floor...

  • cj47
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Buehl, thank you for chiming in! I appreciate that you reiterated the "rules", and I'm going to go over my plan with your list in hand. Seriously. I've lived with a cramped crowded kitchen for so long that the very last thing I want to do is to design a crowded, cramped kitchen!! Rhome keeps warning me about it and she is so right. I need to be very careful. I will get that done as soon as I can and post it. I hope to get a little more feedback and tweaking, then...I'm going to have to pull the trigger on the final layout. It's scary right now because I'm not entirely comfortable with it yet. I do have a space that I can draw it out on now, so that's a good thing--as soon as it dries out a bit, I'm going to do just that.

    Fori, I like your idea of a niche type place, but I'm also one of those people who gravitates to having everything out...and if I am not careful it could get ugly back there.

    The only reason I'd thought of pulling that counter out at all was because the fridge might be so darned big. Having a fridge stick out 8 to 9 inches might be just tooo much. Rhome suggested just building out that area, and that might work--but I am not adverse to just making that whole run a little deeper if it looks better. I'll try to get back to that plan tonight and post it here. But first, I have to scurry and empty out yet another place that they are going to need to get into way before I anticipated that they would need to. These guys are fast.

    Hm, and that prep sink. Where to put it??

    Thanks everyone,

    Cj

  • wa8b
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually, centering the cooktop in the countertop ends up with it positioned only about 3" further back than it would be if it were mounted in a 24" deep countertop. I don't find that it makes much difference at all. The ledge in front of the cooktop is only 4-1/2", which is probably less than the stainless steel ledge at the front of most commercial style ranges such as Viking or Wolf. I find it rather convenient as a staging area for little bowls of chopped herbs or other prepped ingredients that I need as I'm cooking. Having the cooktop back a little further also means that not as many spatters end up on the floor.

    Here's a photo (I took this some time ago, before the soapstone had darkened up):

  • salal_08
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a 12' run of 28" deep countertop. The adjacent run is only 24" deep and it is not noticeable. I only have a dead space in the corner base cabinet but I'd bet, unless you close it in, the extra space on one side would just allow more things to fall off the susan and be impossible to reach without a space arm.

    No upper cabinets along the deeper counters, just windows. They are set above a narrow shelf that is 8" up from the counter and are fairly difficult for me to open and I am 5'9". There are 12" deep uppers along the other stretch and the one in the corner is very difficult to reach inside, even the bottom shelf.

    I am sure part of the problem for reaching window latches and the corner cabinet is because I made the countertop 38" high. I do mind the stretch but not sure I would have done it any different if I had known. I like the extra room, even though I have an island I do most of my prep etc on that countertop because of the windows.

    The cabinet guy built a little box to go behind the sink because I have a wall faucet and that works well. Kind of makes little niches under the shelf on either side.

  • mulemom
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do people usually use deeper base cabinets around a "pro style" range? My current ge range is 26 inches deep + handle, while the DCS sitting in my living room measures over 28 inches plus handle.

  • Fori
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some do, Mulemom. More common is to have column thingies on either side that protrude, usually for spice pullouts. Most common I think is to just leave it sticking out. :)

  • cj47
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's the same worry I have about the refrigerator. That it will be sticking out too far, thus the question about the deeper countertops. LOL...

    You all have given me a lot to think about, the pros and the cons of making any or all of the counters deeper than normal. I so appreciate that you have all taken the time to respond. I need to get back to messing with the layout (Buehl's rules in hand!!) and posting it here.

    Thanks again, everyone.

    Cj